羅杰
記者：我們知道您是90年代畢業(yè)于四川美術(shù)學(xué)院的，為什么直到2006年才開(kāi)始繪畫(huà)的創(chuàng)作和展覽活動(dòng)，能和我們談下之前都在做什么嗎?
羅杰(以下簡(jiǎn)稱(chēng)羅)：很長(zhǎng)一段時(shí)間里,藝術(shù)對(duì)于我來(lái)說(shuō)只是一種夢(mèng)想.但那個(gè)時(shí)候最主要的還不是藝術(shù),而是怎樣找一個(gè)工作,和那個(gè)時(shí)代的絕大部分中國(guó)人一樣, 養(yǎng)活自己才是最主要的,畫(huà)畫(huà)沒(méi)啥出路,但那作為一種可能的生活方式還是留在了我意識(shí)里.以前在干其他工作的同時(shí)老在想畫(huà)畫(huà);也一直想回到這條路上來(lái).
我干的工作很繁雜,畫(huà)過(guò)動(dòng)畫(huà)背景,也畫(huà)過(guò)建筑效果圖,干過(guò)廣告,裝飾設(shè)計(jì),園林設(shè)計(jì),規(guī)劃設(shè)計(jì),房產(chǎn)策劃……亂糟糟的。
記者：這些經(jīng)歷對(duì)您現(xiàn)在的創(chuàng)作有影響嗎?
羅杰：當(dāng)然有影響啦,職業(yè)對(duì)人的塑造作用是巨大的,無(wú)論從觀念還是行為……
記者：2006年至今您的創(chuàng)作都是以《囚》命名，為什么一直執(zhí)著于此沒(méi)有換其他主題?
羅杰：也許這是我的原點(diǎn)吧,每個(gè)人的感受方式不一樣,做藝術(shù)的方式和出發(fā)點(diǎn)也就不一樣,藝術(shù)是情感的載體，像我這樣孤僻內(nèi)斂的人，從本質(zhì)上說(shuō)，對(duì)宏大敘事和晦澀的邏輯思辨不是很感興趣，(令人不安的是，很多觀眾看我的畫(huà)面時(shí)老往宏大敘事和后現(xiàn)代的價(jià)值沖突上解讀)，我注重內(nèi)心真實(shí)，內(nèi)心感受是藝術(shù)表達(dá)最豐富的源泉。我不擅長(zhǎng)交際,與人相處也常常感到緊張,其實(shí)像我這樣的人在這個(gè)社會(huì)屬于沉默的大多數(shù)，有類(lèi)似的敏感而纖細(xì)的神經(jīng),承受力不強(qiáng)，我就是這樣，外面很平常的事物出現(xiàn)在我的感知中要么被放大,要么被扭曲變形,我就經(jīng)常因一點(diǎn)小事輾轉(zhuǎn)難眠，如果我一個(gè)人呆在畫(huà)室里,肯定像一個(gè)安靜的孩子,但與人交往,卻常常認(rèn)真地干些得罪他人或冒天下之大不韙的傻事而渾然不覺(jué)。恰如其分地處理生活中的事情在我這里總是那么困難,這種性格特點(diǎn)讓我頭疼不已。有一句套話(huà):性格即命運(yùn),我深以為然.這也許和我這個(gè)家族的基因有關(guān),我父親就是一個(gè)這樣的人,郁郁寡歡,刻板木納。單位開(kāi)會(huì)就因一點(diǎn)小事頂撞領(lǐng)導(dǎo),讓人難堪。因此他就把自己關(guān)在由孤僻和倔強(qiáng)編織的習(xí)慣之網(wǎng)中，就像給自己套上了一幅看不見(jiàn)的枷鎖。很長(zhǎng)一段時(shí)間，我會(huì)覺(jué)得那個(gè)逝去的老人套著那副枷鎖的意象很悲涼，但現(xiàn)在我卻不那么認(rèn)為了，因?yàn)閺哪撤N角度上來(lái)說(shuō)，枷鎖具有雙重含意---禁錮自己，同時(shí)也禁錮這個(gè)世界。對(duì)他來(lái)說(shuō)，也許應(yīng)該是保護(hù)自己，被禁錮的是這個(gè)世界吧。
很早之前,我就覺(jué)得自己也套著一幅和父親身上一樣的枷鎖,我能感受到它的存在。它每天都禁錮住我,我不可能無(wú)視它的存在。如果是其他人,也許會(huì)選擇逃避,選擇反叛或選擇沉默,但作為視覺(jué)藝術(shù)家,我找了一種方式把它視覺(jué)化了。這就是你所看到的以《囚》為名的作品。同時(shí)作為一個(gè)普通人，我看到自己關(guān)在屋子里畫(huà)出來(lái)的那些東西，就像自己身上脫下來(lái)的皮。
之所以一直做,沒(méi)換主題,那是因?yàn)槲覍?duì)這種令人難以釋?xiě)训募易逵洃浿?我想自己對(duì)此著迷本身就具有一種文化態(tài)度，同時(shí)也覺(jué)得致力于一種與之對(duì)應(yīng)的視覺(jué)形式的探索不是件很容易的事，還需要一段時(shí)間才能把它在藝術(shù)上一步步推向極致。
繩的意向 20×30cm Acrylic on paper 1995
記者：在2005年的創(chuàng)作中，里面的對(duì)象還不是純粹的人物，大部分只是扭結(jié)在一起的繩子本身，那么后來(lái)您創(chuàng)作的用繩子編結(jié)出來(lái)的人是現(xiàn)在創(chuàng)作思路的一種完善嗎?
羅杰：你真是一個(gè)細(xì)心的人啊。
是的，在05年前，我的創(chuàng)作是沒(méi)有現(xiàn)在這種面貌的，而是糾纏在一起的亂麻，人的形象算不上是完善，而是一條河流的兩條分支，而我更在乎05年以前的狀態(tài)，那種狀態(tài)更純粹。
記者：藝術(shù)家可選擇的繪畫(huà)對(duì)象很多，特定的繪畫(huà)元素會(huì)成為藝術(shù)家特定的代表符號(hào)，您的特殊就在于“繩子”，為什么選它，有什么特殊情結(jié)嗎?
羅杰：我不知道從什么時(shí)候開(kāi)始，我對(duì)糾纏不清，盤(pán)根錯(cuò)節(jié)的編制意象著迷，但就我現(xiàn)存的“拿得出手的”和現(xiàn)在的風(fēng)格有淵源的作品是1995年的那張紙本小畫(huà)。也是用細(xì)密的線(xiàn)條把畫(huà)面纏滿(mǎn)，我想這種習(xí)慣和自己的早年生活有關(guān)吧，比如童年常?？磱寢岎B(yǎng)蠶，蠶吐絲是一個(gè)意向;另外我父親對(duì)編織漁網(wǎng)那種病態(tài)的癡迷和依賴(lài)。
記者：用無(wú)數(shù)繩索編織成人的軀體，他有靈魂嗎，怎樣突出“囚和自由”的關(guān)系?
畫(huà)面上的東西是沒(méi)有靈魂的，那只是畫(huà)布和顏料，貢布里希曾說(shuō)過(guò)，沒(méi)有藝術(shù)，只有藝術(shù)家。你在古往今來(lái)的偉大和不偉大的畫(huà)面上所看到的圖像都說(shuō)不上有靈魂，那只是藝術(shù)家逝去的情感記憶;是他們的排泄物。但后來(lái)的人可以通過(guò)這些東西窺見(jiàn)藝術(shù)家的靈魂。作為一個(gè)性格上有點(diǎn)問(wèn)題的人，我看到自己關(guān)在屋子里畫(huà)出來(lái)的那些東西，就像自己身上脫下來(lái)的一層皮。是一種藝術(shù)的解脫方式。
記者：數(shù)不清的繩索纏繞一團(tuán)，您是想解開(kāi)還是繼續(xù)糾結(jié)下去?
羅杰：我都說(shuō)不清自己是想解開(kāi)還是想糾結(jié)下去?；蛘叨呓杂?
記者：您后期的作品中似乎都帶有敘事性，充斥著暴力色彩，繩索人互相之間進(jìn)行著爭(zhēng)執(zhí)、毆打、廝殺，弄得傷痕累累，奔放的情緒像洪水一發(fā)不可收拾，這樣強(qiáng)烈的感情來(lái)源于哪?
羅杰：其實(shí)這些東西很大程度上是偶爾所得，不是刻意為之，來(lái)源于哪里我都不知道，但和那些強(qiáng)烈的情緒相比我更在乎作畫(huà)時(shí)平靜安詳?shù)倪^(guò)程。我很享受它，它是一種很大的反差。我覺(jué)得這個(gè)更有意思。
記者：作品中帶有自殘性質(zhì)的創(chuàng)作過(guò)程，包括對(duì)生活和周?chē)澜绲囊环N反抗和吶喊，刻畫(huà)諸多纏繞的繩索需要巨大時(shí)間和精力的付出甚至于說(shuō)透支，更讓我們感受到您內(nèi)心的一種深刻的痛苦體驗(yàn)。
羅杰：剛才我不是提到這一點(diǎn)嗎?我畫(huà)這些東西一點(diǎn)都不痛苦，也許人們看到那么繁雜擁擠的畫(huà)面，會(huì)認(rèn)為這家伙有自虐傾向，但在我這里算不上自殘。而且很享受，一個(gè)人呆在自己的空間里安靜地畫(huà)畫(huà)。也許別人看到我的畫(huà)面?zhèn)鬟_(dá)的是另一種強(qiáng)大的視覺(jué)張力。那種力量是由一雙普通的手，一顆作畫(huà)時(shí)淡然的心，在平靜安詳?shù)臅r(shí)間流逝中一筆一筆地完成的。相反，在不畫(huà)畫(huà)而陷于人與事的紛擾時(shí)，我反而會(huì)感到痛苦萬(wàn)分。
記者：07年開(kāi)始還穿插了人與人之間調(diào)侃的場(chǎng)景，人物的媚笑加上墨鏡、吊帶、內(nèi)衣等更增加了人物的時(shí)尚造型，情緒上也有了變化，是要與時(shí)俱進(jìn)?
羅杰：不是吧，只是朝另一個(gè)方向做一些嘗試。淺嘗即止。
記者：您不厭其煩的編制繩索人，會(huì)一直繼續(xù)下去嗎，有沒(méi)有考慮換其他的藝術(shù)語(yǔ)言?
羅杰：其實(shí)我早就在探索其他視覺(jué)形式了。畢竟試驗(yàn)性是當(dāng)代藝術(shù)的基本品格，我不可能在一種語(yǔ)言上老這樣折騰下去。過(guò)一段時(shí)間你就會(huì)明白的。
記者：一直以來(lái)您在畫(huà)面色彩處理上基本是無(wú)彩色為主，因?yàn)檫@樣壓抑的色彩構(gòu)成方式足以表現(xiàn)您強(qiáng)烈的感受?
羅杰：我喜歡黑白灰的感覺(jué)。由這些色調(diào)所構(gòu)成的畫(huà)面，最接近我的內(nèi)心感受。也更純粹。
記者：諸多眼花繚亂的線(xiàn)組成不同的角色，您在創(chuàng)作時(shí)需要極大的耐性和縝密的思維，有沒(méi)有被諸多繩索擾亂過(guò)，那么怎樣處理?
羅杰：沒(méi)有被擾亂過(guò)。挺好的。
記者：有趣的是08年開(kāi)始繩索人為什么長(zhǎng)頭發(fā)了，畫(huà)面上產(chǎn)生兩種質(zhì)感的強(qiáng)烈對(duì)比。
羅杰：那是最近的事情，是有些變化，在畫(huà)面構(gòu)成上更豐富了。
記者：最近會(huì)有什么新的活動(dòng)嗎?
羅杰：4月24號(hào)有一個(gè)個(gè)人展覽在美國(guó)中部圣路易斯安那，LOCOCO畫(huà)廊。現(xiàn)在正在辦簽證。
2009.3.20.
Interview with Luo Jie
1. (LOFT ART): We know that you graduated from Sichuan Fine Arts Institute, but why did you start to be engaged in creation and exhibition from as late as 2006? Could you share with us what you did before that?
Luo: For a long period of time, art was just a dream for me. But at that time, what was most important was not art but how to find a job. Like most of the Chinese people at that time, the most important thing was to feed myself, and there was hardly any hope for me to make it as a painter. But it still remained in my consciousness as a possible way of life. I used to be obsessed by the thought of painting and have been looking forward to returning to this track.
Luo: I did all sorts of work—animation background, architectural renderings, advertising, decoration designing, landscape designing, planning & designing, and real estate promotion scheming …such a medley!
2. (LOFT ART):Has such experience had an influence on your creative work?
Luo: Of course it has. Occupations have a great shaping effect on people, no matter in mentality or in behavior.
3.(LOFT ART):All your creative work since 2006 has been named Imprisonment. Why are you so persistent in this regard and why haven’t you had a change in theme?
Luo: Perhaps this is my starting point. Different people have different perceptions, and they have different approaches and starting points towards art. Art is a carrier of feelings. As an unsociable and introverted person, essentially speaking, I am not interested in indulging myself in telling big stories and expressing obscure logical ideas. (What makes me feel uneasy is that a lot of audience tends to construe my paintings with big stories and post-modernistic conflicts in values.) On the contrary, I attach importance to inner reality, and inner feelings are the most abundant source for artistic expression. Clumsy at socializing and often nervous with people, I actually belong to the silent majority of the society, with similarly sensitive and delicate nerves and unable to bear too much. I am such a person. Externally ordinary matters can be either magnified or distorted in my perception. I often become sleepless because of trivial matters. Staying in the gallery by myself, I would be like a quiet child, while socializing with people, I would earnestly do some silly things which either offend other people or defy world opinion, which I am totally unaware of. It is always so difficult for me to deal with matters in everyday life appropriately. Such a characteristic in personality has been a headache for me. To use a stereotyped expression: Personality determines destiny. I am deeply convinced of that. This may have something to do with my familial genes. My father is just such a person—depressed and joyless, inflexible and simple. He would contradict his superiors at meetings just because of trifles, making them embarrassed. Therefore, he confined himself within the net woven out of his habitual eccentricity and stubbornness, just like a set of invisible shackles on himself. For a long time, I would feel that the image of the deceased old man with that set of shackles was so sad, but now I no longer think like that, for shackles have double meanings from certain perspective—shackles for himself, and shackles for this world as well. For him, maybe they served as protection, and what was shackled was this world.
A long time ago, I started to feel that there were a similar set of shackles on myself like those on my father, and I could felt their existence. It shackled me every day so that it was impossible for me to ignore their existence. If I had been someone else, I would have chosen to escape, to rebel or to keep silent, while as a visual artist, I found a way to visualize them, which is what you see the works named Imprisonment. Meanwhile, as an ordinary person, when I see the stuff I painted during my confinement in the house, it is like skin cast off from my body.
The reason why I have been persistent in doing this and haven’t changed the theme is that I am fascinated with this family memory that I can hardly dismiss from my mind. I believe that there is a cultural attitude in my fascination with it itself, at the same time I don’t think it is an easy job to devote oneself to the exploration of a visual form corresponding to it. It still needs some time to push it to its ultimate state in art.
4. (LOFT ART): I your creative works in 2005, the objects within them were still not pure figures but just ropes intertwining together. Then are the figures you wove out of ropes later on an improvement in your creative thinking at that time?
Luo: You are such a careful person!
Yes, before 2005, my creative works didn’t take this form but were in a tangle, and the images of figures are not an improvement actually but two tributaries of one river. I care more about the state before 2005, which was purer.
5. (LOFT ART): Artists have a wide range of choices when referring to objects for painting, and certain elements in painting can become certain symbols for artists. You are special in ropes. Why have you chosen them? Is there any special complex behind it?
I can’t recall clearly when I began to be fascinated with tangled images such as twisted roots and gnarled branches, but among my current collection of presentable art pieces, a little drawing on paper I created in 1995 has some relationship with my current style. It is also filled with intertwining fine close lines, and I suppose that this habit is related to my early life. For instance, in my childhood, I often watched my mother raising silkworms, and silkworms’ silk-spinning is an image; besides, I was also morbidly fascinated with and dependent upon my father’s fishnet weaving.
6. (LOFT ART): Do the human bodies woven out of numerous ropes have souls? How is the relationship between “imprisonment and freedom”highlighted?
Luo: The things on the surface of drawings do not have souls. They are just canvas and pigments. Just as Ernst Gombrich once put it, “There really is no such thing as Art. There are only artists.” For all of the images you’ve seen on the paintings throughout the ages, great or not, you can’t say they have a soul---they are just the emotional memory of artists; they are the excretion of them. But people from later generations can get a glimpse of the souls of artists from these things. As a person with problems in personality, when I see the stuff I painted within the confinement of the house, it seems that it is a layer of skin I have shed from my own body. It is an artistic way of freeing oneself.
7. (LOFT ART):Countless ropes intertwine together. Do you want to untie them or leave them as they are?
Luo: I am not sure whether I want to untie them or leave them as they are. Maybe I want both?
8. (LOFT ART):Your later works seem to be tinted with narrative characteristics, full of violence, and the ropes and humans are wrangling, beating and fighting with each other, leaving scars all over. The wild emotions run out of control like floods. Where do these strong feelings come from?
To a large extent, these things are actually accidental rather than intentional. Even I myself don’t know where they come from. But compared with the strong emotions I care more about the quiet and serene process of painting itself. I enjoy it so much, and it is a great contrast. I consider it (the process) as more meaningful.
9. (LOFT ART):The creative process of works with self-inflicted injuries involves an opposition to and an outcry against life and the outside world. It takes considerable time and energy, even to the extent of over exhaustion, to depict so many tangling ropes, which all the more makes us feel a kind of profound painful experience deep in your heart.
Luo: Didn’t I mention this point just now? I felt no pain while drawing these things. Perhaps people would believe that this guy have a masochistic tendency when they see scenes so miscellaneous and crowded. But here I am not inflicting injuries on myself; instead, I am enjoying it so much—staying in my own space and painting quietly. Perhaps other people may found another kind of strong visual tension conveyed by my paintings. That kind of power comes from an ordinary pair of hands and a detached heart in painting. The paintings have been finished stroke by stroke amid the quiet and serene passage of time. On the other hand, when I am not painting but involved in turmoil with people or matters, I will be feeling great agony.
10. (LOFT ART): Since 2007, scenes of gags among people started to be introduced, and bewitching smiles of the figures plus sunglasses, backless blouses and underclothes further add to the fashionable styles of the figures; besides, there are also changes in emotions. Are you proceeding with the times?
Luo: I am afraid not. They are just some tentative techniques towards another direction. I will stop trying that after gaining some experience.
11. (LOFT ART):Since 2008, the figures began to have definite bright eyes, and the images began to be relaxed. Is there a change in your attitude?
Luo: My attitude has been like this and there has been no change in it. Instead, your question makes me think that you have some preconceived attitude in it, that is, my early attitude is different from my current one.
You can only say that the images are different. So are the visual perceptions they convey to people. My attitude towards painting has been consistent.
12. (LOFT ART):You take great pains to weave ropes. Will you go on doing that? Have you considered other artistic languages?
Luo: As a matter of fact, I have been exploring other forms of visual representation for a long time. After all, experimentality is a basic characteristic of modern arts, and I can’t possibly devote myself to a single artistic language. You will understand what I mean in some time.
13. (LOFT ART):Your chromatic treatment of the images has largely been colorless. Is it because only such a depressing chromatic composition can express your strong feelings?
I like the feeling with black, white and grey. The images composed by such colors are closest to my inner feelings and they are also the purest.
14. (LOFT ART):During the process of your creation of figures, it takes great patience and meticulous thinking to create different roles with so many dazzling lines. Have you ever been disturbed by so many ropes? If so, how would you deal with that?
Luo: Never have I been disturbed by them. Everything has been OK.
15. (LOFT ART):It’s interesting that since 2008, the rope figures began to have hair and there is a sharp contrast between two feels on the images.
That’s something recently. There are some changes. As a result, the images have been enriched in composition.
16.. (LOFT ART):Will there be some new activities in the near future?
Luo: On April 24, I will hold a personal exhibition of works at Lococo’s Gallery in Louisiana, a central state in the Unites States. Now I am going through the procedures for a visa.
20.3.2009.
【編輯：小紅】
