郭小力（以下簡稱郭）：對于藝術(shù)家來說，現(xiàn)在這個時代是最好的嗎？
王音（以下簡稱王）：藝術(shù)家有多種多樣，你為什么覺得這個時代對藝術(shù)家來說比較好？
郭：因為環(huán)境寬松，藝術(shù)家似乎比以往都好活；還有時代本身存在的問題較多，促使藝術(shù)家在創(chuàng)作方面有針對性。
王：這個時代肯定是劇烈變革的時代，不僅是從藝術(shù)家的角度看，任何一個人所遭遇的現(xiàn)實都是無法用語言所描述的。現(xiàn)實太強(qiáng)大了。
作為藝術(shù)家每天一定會與現(xiàn)實發(fā)生摩擦，就我個人來說，我總是想用一種方式將現(xiàn)實給你的觸動呈現(xiàn)出來。它不斷地在修正你的工作方法，是形成你工作方式的一部分。
郭：談?wù)勀愕碾A段性的工作和方法。
王：我的工作大致分兩個階段，2000年以前是一個階段，2000年至今又是一個階段。88年大學(xué)畢業(yè)開始，我覺得自己是在發(fā)展一種自己的語言，這種語言和新時期以來的當(dāng)代藝術(shù)有些差異，比如八十年代的當(dāng)代藝術(shù)特點是借用西方的語言模式，關(guān)注中國的現(xiàn)實問題；像批評家評論某個藝術(shù)家時會說，“他使用了一種西方語言轉(zhuǎn)換中國現(xiàn)實很到位”，等等。我試圖做某種比較個人化的、非中心的邊緣性的東西，我的目的是嘗試呈現(xiàn)出一種被忽視的地域性特質(zhì)，我常說它帶有某種口音。我就很感興趣這種在中國的現(xiàn)代性進(jìn)程中可能生長的東西，而不是找一個成功的西方語言模式，來表達(dá)中國的現(xiàn)實，并且很對位。我轉(zhuǎn)換的恰恰是比較土的，本土的東西，像“五四”以來，留學(xué)生的土油畫和繪畫意識以及它們自己一種流變過程。我是用直覺和情感來工作，盡可能不做價值判斷。我讓我的作品盡可能停留在感性層面，我的整個繪畫工作的后期傾向于把已被命名的東西匿名化，使事物再回到匿名的狀態(tài)里去。比如我處理蘇聯(lián)一批知識分子的肖像時，它對于我只有情感意義。我盡可能清晰、簡潔地把握住這種感覺。
郭：你一直是在自覺地使用這樣的語言嗎？
王：對。在一個階段中我們一直是受西方現(xiàn)代性思想的控制，這當(dāng)然有進(jìn)步、合理的一面，但另一方面，我也有種找不到地面的感覺。在九十年代初那個時候，我很想做些可信的東西，當(dāng)時這個感覺很強(qiáng)烈，所以，九十年代以后我看起來是非常不激進(jìn)的，作品看上去缺乏時代感，既不是學(xué)院派，也不具有很強(qiáng)的“當(dāng)代藝術(shù)”的特征，僅僅是一種感受。
郭：那為什么，你對什么樣的東西有距離？
王：我喜歡個人化的東西，有意思的東西。
郭：你是一個畫畫不多又很慢的藝術(shù)家吧。
王：為什么要畫得快，又畫得多？我覺得畫得多也不能有助我的工作進(jìn)展，那么多和快就無所謂了。
郭：你在圓明園的時候做了些什么？
王：按部就班的工作，我在圓明園呆了三年時間，做了一批作品，后來這些作品成了我工作方法的支撐點。那時候符號性的東西我是不感興趣的。我還是比較在意尋找個人化的工作方法，包括為什么采用繪畫這種方式。繪畫在整體上是一種不那么時髦的媒介，這是我看中它的緣故。它的性質(zhì)比較符合我。
郭：你覺得哪些事對你來說挺重要的？
王：來北京對我來說挺重要的，我在青島長大，小時候看到有好多海軍軍人，我沒有看到過有穿黃軍裝的，北京就有很多。北京到處都是灰蒙蒙的，我挺喜歡。我八三年來北京讀本科，八十年代北京是個令人激動的地方，有很多人，有很多想法。當(dāng)時我想考中央美院，但是只招兩個名額，這樣就選擇了戲劇學(xué)院，他們當(dāng)時有八個名額?？纪炅艘矝]多想，后來得到了通知還挺奇怪，怎么就考上了。
郭：在戲劇學(xué)院讀書時你有意識想以后做個畫家嗎？
王：沒那么明確，當(dāng)時最大的樂趣就是畫畫，讀書，凡是有意思的事情都想做。讀書時也不知道有賣畫這事，看了很多書，覺得很滿足。西方現(xiàn)代派文學(xué)，現(xiàn)代派電影，總之一切被西方現(xiàn)代主義控制。后來我漸漸覺得這是隔霧看花。八十年代屬于知識的狂歡時期，所有人都很興奮，都在思辨，不知道為什么而辯。我們讀書的時候不斷地接受和揚(yáng)棄一些思潮，從王國維，李澤厚，薩特，尼采等等。那個時候大致的背景就是這樣的。
郭：從你簡單的描述中感到你的經(jīng)歷和氣質(zhì)是一種純粹知識分子的狀態(tài)，而不是繪畫藝術(shù)家的狀態(tài)，你現(xiàn)在是怎么樣的？
王：有時候我會被現(xiàn)實的問題所抓住，有時也會被自己的工作方法本身所困擾，還有時被所處的藝術(shù)環(huán)境所困惑。我一直想嘗試形成某種風(fēng)格或者方式，一種包含著矛盾性的風(fēng)格和方式，即工作方法本身能夠回應(yīng)現(xiàn)實。我的作品里面有某種不確定性，包含有自我否定性。所以，看起來我的繪畫像是反繪畫。其實我的作品里面始終有一條相對清晰的線索，我骨子里不喜歡簡單化的東西，簡單的肯定。就像你不能簡單地說像貝克特這樣類型的作家都是荒誕派，我反對直接貼標(biāo)簽。
郭：你的工作一直以來都是很有計劃性嗎？你擅長讓一切都清晰化還是喜歡隨機(jī)性？
王：總的來說我喜歡清晰化，但是我也會將隨機(jī)性的東西納入其中。我的有些作品往往是突然一下闖入的。我確認(rèn)一個東西需要花時間，有時候花很長時間，所以，總體上我很有條理性。我喜歡做的少但呈現(xiàn)的多，那樣多好？
郭：對生活呢，你怎么對待？理性分析嗎？
王：我前段時間在看匈牙利作家凱爾泰斯的隨筆，他有句話擊中了我，生活就是一種屈從。要學(xué)會生活的屈從。我好象覺得他直接在跟我個人說話，有時候僅僅只是一句話，揭示了人內(nèi)部真實的處境。一個藝術(shù)家，如果我是個藝術(shù)家，我覺得必須要操心日常生活的很多瑣事。藝術(shù)給予我的東西要遠(yuǎn)大于我所做的。
郭：你偶爾會天真一下，想想永恒性的東西嗎？跟作品有關(guān)系或沒關(guān)系的……
王：這怎么說呢？可能我更注重趣味吧。比如我推崇莎士比亞，他的作品里面沒有自己，但是給每個人都提供了一種認(rèn)識你自己的可能性。還有，契訶夫，曹禺……他們作品很清晰，完全越過了簡單的意識形態(tài)層面的東西。所以，我喜歡的是這種趣味的作品。
郭：趣味這個詞很好，趣味也是形成工作方式的一部分吧？
王：我們回應(yīng)我們所處的這個時代，這個現(xiàn)實。現(xiàn)實不是簡單的此時此刻，現(xiàn)實是在歷史中的，我非常不贊同表述現(xiàn)實就是一套語言，一套系統(tǒng)，一個價值觀。這樣不能提升個人對生命的感受，也不夠尊重自己和現(xiàn)實。
郭：目前這樣的藝術(shù)很多吧。
王：可能，但這和我無關(guān)。我希望我做的東西盡量少一些觀念，少一些想法，多些感受性的東西。最近這樣的念頭很強(qiáng)烈。
郭：是啊，現(xiàn)在似乎觀念過剩了……
王：平實的東西很吸引我，總是在不經(jīng)意的時候拉動我。平實的東西有時會有令人吃驚的蠻力。
郭：你特別喜歡讀書吧？讀了很多文學(xué)和哲學(xué)吧？你的繪畫中有文學(xué)性。你覺得文本經(jīng)驗?zāi)芨淖兪裁磫幔?BR>王：我讀書很雜，而且是階段性的。這段時間沒事兒在讀唐詩宋詞，也讀《紅樓夢》，偶爾就看看，再看看，沒什么目的，只是讓生活處于一種放松狀態(tài)。像“第十四回秦可卿死封龍禁尉”的那段，很悲劇的東西但里面幾乎每句話的描寫卻是用喜劇、鬧劇的手法，特別像我們跟現(xiàn)實所經(jīng)常遭遇的感覺。啟發(fā)我的是可以用喜劇方式去處理那些重大的、無法表達(dá)的、沖擊我們的現(xiàn)實經(jīng)驗。我希望我的作品呈現(xiàn)多一些日常經(jīng)驗的感受力，而不是先進(jìn)的觀念，不需要和某種價值達(dá)成默契。
郭：有個詞用的特別多，就是“當(dāng)下”，你怎樣看當(dāng)下，你的作品中“記憶”是更多的……
王：當(dāng)下是什么呢？此時此刻的經(jīng)驗？任何一種“當(dāng)下”都是有源頭的。一個人不可能做跟現(xiàn)實無關(guān)的事情，哪怕是用考古的方式來完成。你不能說福柯跟當(dāng)代沒有關(guān)系，盡管他做的是歷史考古，如果不是回應(yīng)現(xiàn)實，他也形成不了他如此有力量的工作方式。
郭：你的觀念不是來自于西方的邏輯，你用學(xué)院派和民間繪畫相互間的破壞構(gòu)成一種新的語言形態(tài)，這種獨特的語言已經(jīng)編織了很長時間吧？
王：從圓明園時期開始，很長一段時間我的工作對于別人來說是不存在的，但它對于形成我今天的工作方式是起作用的。在很長一段時間，我的工作的確沒有引起人的注意，或者是這種經(jīng)驗別人覺得不合適宜。現(xiàn)在來看，很清靜地工作一段時間，也未嘗不是一件好事。
郭：你是一個喜歡按照自己的感受力去工作的畫家，在你的作品中也有很多達(dá)達(dá)主義的痕跡，在一副蘇式風(fēng)景畫上再加工，加熱的電熱毯包括采用巴塞利茲的圖式在2005年畫的那副《新居》，都充滿了調(diào)侃的味道。
王：對，我借用過這樣很明顯的圖式?！缎戮印凡捎昧税腿澙L畫的手法但畫得很俗氣，像樓盤的說明書。有種自我嘲諷的意味，也是心理感覺的東西。
郭：那幅《采薇圖》很吸引人，也是一種現(xiàn)實映照吧。
王：對，我和亞歷山大合作時所做的。對應(yīng)了我的處境，也表達(dá)了我和今天藝術(shù)環(huán)境的一個關(guān)系，挺愣的。我讓他掛在辦公室里，他說別人都看不見了，還是掛在了展廳，少了點意思。
郭：展覽對于藝術(shù)家來說，有全面控制的那種重要性嗎？
王：展覽是必要的，工作室里的工作才是最重要的。展覽是工作的延展，它依然是你的工作經(jīng)驗的一部分。
郭：最近的工作怎么樣？
王：在畫自畫像，畫風(fēng)景，還有靜物。
郭：你會為什么而焦慮？從你個人經(jīng)驗來說，想擺脫什么？
王：焦慮有多方面的，有時是突然產(chǎn)生的。我希望自己的工作處于一種未知的狀態(tài)。我比較忌諱作品圓滑到?jīng)]有漏洞，覺得做東西應(yīng)該避熟就生而不是避生就熟，可能我還是需要求生澀吧。
Interview
Interviewer: Guo Xiaoli
Guo Xiaoli (Abbreviated as Guo in the following text): For artists working today, is this the best time ever?
Wang Yin (Abbreviated as Wang in the following text): There are different kinds of artists. Why do you think that this time is better for artists?
Guo: Because the general climate is more relaxed. Artists seem to have an easier time than ever before. Meanwhile, there are many issues emerging at this particular point of history, which artists are able to explore in their practice.
Wang: This is definitely a time characterized by dramatic transformations, not only from an artist”s point of view. The reality that every single person encounters is beyond description. The reality is too powerful.
An artist certainly has a lot of contact with the reality on a daily basis. For me personally, I always try to present the touch of the reality in a certain way. It keeps modifying your way of working so that it becomes part of your way of working.
Guo: Please talk about different stages of your work and methods.
Wang: My work can be roughly summed up in two stages, the stage prior to 2000 and the second one from 2000 to the present. Since I graduated from university in 1988, I have been developing a language of my own. This language is different from that of contemporary art since the New Period. For instance, in the 80s, there was a tendency in contemporary art practice to discuss Chinese reality with Western art languages. A critic would describe an artist”s work as "his interpretation of Chinese reality with a Western language is done well," etc. I have tried to do something that”s rather personal, decentralized and marginal. My aim has been to present a regional distinction that had been overlooked. I often say that it has a certain accent. I am particularly interested in the kind of thing that is likely to grow in modernity in China, rather than expressing Chinese reality with a successful Western style and doing it well. What I have wanted to transform is exactly the very home-grown, like the native oil paintings and perception of paintings of those students that had studied abroad and their own process of evolution, since the "May 4th". I work with my instinct and emotion and try not to make any judgment. I let my work settle on the level of sensibility. In the latter stage of my practice in painting, I tend to make what has been named anonymous, and return things to an anonymous state. For example, when I worked with a series of portraits of Soviet intellectuals, they only had an emotional value to me. I tried to grasp this feeling as clearly and succinctly as possible.
Guo: Have you always been using this language consciously?
Wang: Yes, at one stage, we were controlled by Western modernist thinking, which certainly had its advanced and logical aspect. On the other hand, I had a feeling that I couldn”t find the ground. In the beginning of the 90s, I wanted to make some convincing things. The feeling was very strong back then. Therefore, after the 90s, I seemed rather unprogressive. My work seemed to be missing a sense of the present time. It was neither academic nor with strong "contemporary art" features. It was simply a feeling.
Guo: Why? What was it that you had a distance from?
Wang: I like very personal things, interesting things.
Guo: You are an artist who paints few and rather slowly.
Wang: Why should I paint fast or a lot? I realize that even if I painted more, it wouldn”t help advance my work. Therefore it doesn”t matter whether I paint more or fast.
Guo: What did you do when you stayed in Yuan Ming Yuan (Old Summer Palace)?
Wang: I was working routinely. I was in Yuan Ming Yuan for three years, during which I created a group of works. These works later became a basis for my way of working. At that time, I had no interest in symbolic things. I was rather set on searching for a personalized way of working, including my choice of painting as a medium. In general, painting isn”t such a fashionable medium, which is precisely why I had liked it. Its quality suits me better.
Guo: What are the things that have mattered to you?
Wang: It has been very important for me to move to Beijing. I grew up in Qingdao, where I saw a lot of navy soldiers when I was small. I had never seen soldiers in yellow army suits until I came to Beijing. Beijing was all gray everywhere. I quite liked it. I came to Beijing in 1983 to study for my bachelor degree. Beijing was an exciting place in the 80s. There were many people and ideas. I had wanted to go to the Central Academy of Fine Arts but the school only offered two vacancies so I chose the drama academy. They had eight quotas. I didn”t think much about it after I finished the exam. Later on when I received the notice that I was in, I was quite surprised how I could have passed the test.
Guo: Did you realize that you wanted to be a painter when you were studying at the drama academy?
Wang: It was not so obvious to me. What I enjoyed the most at that time were painting and reading. I wanted to try anything interesting. I didn”t know about selling paintings when I was at school. I read a lot of books and was very satisfied with that. There were Western modernist literature and modernist films. Everything was dominated by Western modernism. Slowly I felt that it was all very ambiguous. The 80s was an age of revelry for knowledge. Everyone was very excited and intellectually active, thinking and debating, even though not knowing for what. At school, we kept on receiving while abandoning some trends of thoughts, from Wang Guowei, Li Zehou, to Satre and Nietzsche etc. This is what it was like back then.
Guo: From your simple description, I can feel that your experience and temperament were purely of an intellectual, instead of a painter. What are you like now?
Wang: Sometimes, I would be gripped by issues of the reality, or troubled by my own way of working, or otherwise, by the environment of art that I find myself in. I”ve been trying to establish a certain style or method, one with contradictions, that is, a way of working that can respond to the reality on its own. There is some uncertainty in my work, including self-denial. Therefore, it seems that my painting is anti-painting. In fact, there is always a rather clear clue in my work. Deep down, I don”t like simplified things, simplified approval. It”s like you can simply say that the type of writers like Beckett all belongs to the theatre of the absurd. I oppose to such direct labeling.
Guo: Has your work always been well planned? Are you good at making everything clear or being spontaneous?
Wang: In general, I like to be clear but I also take spontaneous things into account. With some of my works, I usually burst into them all of a sudden. It takes time for me to confirm something. Sometimes it takes very long. Therefore, generally I am very organized. I like to do less but show more. That would be ideal?
Guo: How about life? How do you deal with life? Analytically?
Wang: I was reading Hungary writer Kertesz”s essays a while ago. Something he said has struck me, life is a kind of giving in. One should learn to yield in life. It seems to me that he was talking directly to me personally. Sometimes only one sentence can reveal the real place inside a person. As an artist, I feel that there are many trifle things to worry about in daily life. What art gives me is far larger than what I do.
Guo: Will you occasionally get na?ve and think about the permanent things? Something that relates or doesn”t relate to works...
Wang: How can I explain this? Maybe I pay more attention to taste. For example, I think highly of Shakespeare. He didn”t put himself in his work. His work provides everyone with a possibility to get to know yourself. Besides, as to Chekhov and Cao Yu...their works are very clear, completely transcending the simple ideological level. Thus what I like is work with this kind of taste.
Guo: Taste is a good word. Taste is perhaps a part of one”s way of working?
Wang: We should respond to the times we are in today, this reality. Reality is not simply here and now. Reality is in history. I don”t agree that to express reality is a set of language, a set of system, a value. This way doesn”t elevate one”s individual perception of life, nor does it respect itself or the reality.
Guo: There is a lot of art like that at the moment.
Wang: Maybe, but it has nothing to do with me. I hope what I do has less to do with concepts or ideas, more with emotions. I have such a strong idea lately.
Guo: Yes, at the moment, there seems to be an abundance of concepts...
Wang: Down-to-earth things appeal to me, pull at me when I least notice them. Ordinary things have surprising forces at times.
Guo: You like reading very much, right? You”ve read a lot of literature and philosophy? There is a sense of literature in your painting. Do you think your literary experience can make an impact on your art practice?
Wang: I read a very mixture of things, depending on the period of time. Lately, I”ve been reading Tang poetry and Song prose, as well as the Dream of Red Mansions, which I read occasionally, again and again, without much purpose, keeping my life in a relaxed state. Like in the 13th episode "The Death of Qin Keqing and Giving Her the Title of Longjinwei", it was about very tragic things but almost every sentence was written in a comic and slapstick style. It”s particularly similar to the feeling that we encounter often in reality. It inspires me to handle those heavy, indescribable and striking experiences of reality in a comical way. I hope that my works can portray more perceptions of everyday life, instead of having advanced concepts. There is no need to reach any tacit agreement with a certain value.
Guo: There is a word that”s used extremely often, which is "currently." How do you look at "currently"? In your work, there is more about "memory"...
Wang: What is "currently"? The experience at this moment? Any kind of "current" has its origin. It”s impossible for a person to have nothing to do with the reality, even if it”s completed through the means of archeology. You can”t say that Foucault had nothing to do with the contemporary, even though what he did was archaeology of the history. If he didn”t respond to the reality, it was impossible for him to develop such a powerful way of working.
Guo: You concepts haven”t come from Western logics. You have developed a new language by having the academic and the folk style paintings deconstruct each other. Has it taken you a long time to establish this unique language?
Wang: From my time in Yuan Ming Yuan, for other people, my work didn”t really exist for a very long time, but it has affected the formation of my work of working today. For a very long time, my work did fail to attract any attention or other people didn”t find this experience appropriate. In retrospect, it”s not necessarily a bad thing to be able to work quietly for some time.
Guo: You are a painter who likes to work based on your own perception. In your work, there is a lot of Dadaist influence. To work on a Soviet style landscape painting, an electric blanket, including the adoption of Baselitz”s patterns in "New Residence" painted in 2005, all of them are full of satire.
Wang: Yes, I”ve appropriated such obvious patterns. In "New Residence", I”ve employed Baselitz”s way of painting but I did it in a tacky way, so that it looked like a real estate handbook. There is an implication of self-mockery, also a psychological thing.
Guo: The painting of Picking Osmund is very attractive. It”s also an illustration of the reality.
Wang: Yes, I made it when I collaborated with Alexander. It was parallel to my situation as well as indicated my relationship with today”s art environment. Quite impetuous. I asked him to hang it in his office but he said that other people would miss it, so it was hung in the gallery in the end. It”s less interesting that way.
Guo: For artists, does it matter to have a full control of an exhibition?
Wang: Exhibitions are indispensable, but working in the studio is really the most important thing. Exhibitions are an extension of work. It”s still part of your working experience.
Guo: What are you working on now?
Wang: I am painting self-portraits, landscape and still life.
Guo: Why do you feel anxious? From your personal experience, what do you try to break free from?
Wang: There are many aspects one can be anxious about. These feelings would hit me suddenly at times. I hope that my work is in an unknown state. I would rather dislike my work to be so sleek that it doesn”t have any flaw. I feel that when you do things, you should try to avoid the familiar and undertake the unfamiliar, instead of doing it the other way around. Maybe I still need to be less smooth in my work.
