超離的終極——趙力對(duì)話(huà)肖紅

Xiao Hong -The Series

　　1989年夏天還在內(nèi)蒙師大就讀油畫(huà)專(zhuān)業(yè)的肖紅去了敦煌，20多天的觀摩之后，佛教或者說(shuō)敦煌的獨(dú)特審美在肖紅的記憶中留下了難以消磨的印記。嘗試了構(gòu)成、描述、樣式和符號(hào)的多重創(chuàng)作手段，經(jīng)歷了從單純改造敦煌圖像到鏡像歷史社會(huì)現(xiàn)實(shí)，肖紅在油畫(huà)語(yǔ)言的民族性和銜接當(dāng)下社會(huì)的之間付諸訴求。如今把生活和工作主要放在呼和浩特的肖紅似乎有些超離，低產(chǎn)創(chuàng)作的他在尋求描繪終極理想的方式——如何圖繪西方極樂(lè)世界的景象。

　　In the summer of 1989, Xiao Hong, who was still studying in Inner Mongolia Normal University, went to Dunhuang. The more than 20 days’ inspection and study left with him a strong impression of the special esthetics of Buddhism or Dunhuang, which he found difficult to forget. By trying numerous methods including constructivism, narrative, pattern and symbolism and experiencing a process from purely reforming Dunhuang Images to mirroring social realities, Xiao Hong has been pursuing a language of oil painting in terms of its national characteristics and connection to current society. Now Xiao Hong, who is living and working mainly in Huhhot, seems to be a little unconventional; he is currently in a low yielding period and searching for a way to paint his ultimate ideal—the scenery of Western Paradise.

　　超離的終極 - 趙力對(duì)話(huà)肖紅

　　對(duì)話(huà)者：肖紅，趙力

　　時(shí)間：2010年3月18日 地點(diǎn)：林大畫(huà)廊(北京)

　　The Ultimate of Unconventionality - Conversation between Zhao Li & Xiao Hong

　　Conversation by Xiao Hong & Zhao Li

　　Time: Mar. 18th, 2010

　　Location: Linda Gallery (Beijing)

　　1 西行敦煌 Go West to Dunhuang

　　趙力：你之前的作品線索還是比較清晰的，主要有四個(gè)階段：“再造供養(yǎng)人”，94年到99年;“大路朝天”，99年到01年;然后是“艷陽(yáng)天”，01年到03年;另外“知識(shí)青年”，從03年延續(xù)到現(xiàn)在。倒敘地說(shuō)(?前面和后面都不是倒敘，邏輯不對(duì)吧?)，你今后的方向是什么?

　　Zhao Li: The clue to the themes in your former works is clear in the four phases: “to Rebuild Providers” is from 1994 to 1999; “A Broad Road toward Sky” is from 1999 to 2001; “A Bright Sunny Sky” is from 2001 to 2003; and “Intellectual Youth” is from 2003 till now. So what’s your next direction?

　　肖紅：這幾年看了好多佛教的書(shū)，在想怎么把《無(wú)量壽經(jīng)》描述的西方極樂(lè)世界圖繪下來(lái)?

　　Xiao Hong: I read numerous books on Buddhism in recent years, and I am thinking about painting the Western Paradise described in Sutra of Infinite Life.

　　趙力：你提到了佛教主題性的問(wèn)題，你對(duì)佛教是怎樣認(rèn)識(shí)的，你是佛教徒嗎?

　　Zhao Li: You just mentioned themes in Buddhism, so what’s your opinion on Buddhism, are you a Buddhist?

　　肖紅：不是佛教徒。我在1989年夏天到過(guò)敦煌，那會(huì)兒人很少，敦煌研究院的一位副院長(zhǎng)因?yàn)槲以趧?dòng)亂剛過(guò)的時(shí)候到這里很感動(dòng)，就派人帶我看壁畫(huà)。二十多天，天天看，邊看邊聽(tīng)逐漸有了興趣?；貙W(xué)校后，敦煌印象揮之不去，嘗試著用構(gòu)成方式把敦煌表現(xiàn)出來(lái)，這樣一點(diǎn)點(diǎn)發(fā)展過(guò)來(lái)。

　　Xiao Hong: No, I’m not. I went to Dunhuang in the summer of 1989, when people seldom went there. A vice director of Dunhuang Research Institution was deeply moved by my visit, which was just after the turmoil, so he sent his researchers to show me the frescoes. I visited the frescos while listening to the stories every day for more than 20 days. After I went back to university, the impressive Dunhuang urged me to express them through constructivism, thus things began to develop gradually.

　　趙力：敦煌壁畫(huà)的早期窟型是中心塔柱式的，有一個(gè)主像，周?chē)沁B續(xù)變化的壁畫(huà)。 “再造供養(yǎng)人”系列的畫(huà)面也都是有一個(gè)主像，其余畫(huà)面圍繞展開(kāi)，這應(yīng)該和你看到的窟型和氛圍有關(guān)。

　　Zhao Li: The early form of Dunhuang fresco is of central tower style with a major character surrounded by continuous variations of murals. In the series of “to Rebuild Providers”, there is also a major character surrounded by other elements in each painting, which could relate to the fresco styles and atmosphere you saw previously.

　　肖紅：幾乎是一種拷貝，加上了繪畫(huà)的樣式。

　　Xiao Hong: It is almost a kind of copy, plus the form of painting.

　　趙力：這些作品好像有一種模擬的場(chǎng)景，而且不完全是抽象結(jié)構(gòu)的，我因此看到了另一個(gè)問(wèn)題，學(xué)習(xí)寫(xiě)實(shí)繪畫(huà)的你到了敦煌以后，材料、構(gòu)成包括肌理變成你考慮的主要問(wèn)題，而且有一種現(xiàn)代的表現(xiàn)。

　　Zhao Li: It seems that there is a mimic scene for these works, which is not in completely abstract structure. Thus I learned something else, that after you (who studied realistic painting) arrived in Dunhuang, material and structure, including texture, became your major concern as well as a kind of modern expression.

　　肖紅：對(duì)，當(dāng)時(shí)更突出技術(shù)問(wèn)題。

　　Xiao Hong: Right, technique was more important to me at that time.

　　趙力：敦煌壁畫(huà)的顏色非常豐富，但“供養(yǎng)人”更多是黑白灰的微妙變化。在油畫(huà)顏料、色階變化方面，你是不是有著對(duì)中國(guó)繪畫(huà)語(yǔ)言的訴求?近現(xiàn)代有很多人西行敦煌發(fā)掘民族根源性的東西，比如吳作人、董希文的油畫(huà)都因此發(fā)生很大變化。去了敦煌，你的油畫(huà)表現(xiàn)是不是出現(xiàn)了一種新的變化?

　　Zhao Li: The color of Dunhuang fresco is very profound, but “the Providers” shows more refined variations of black, white and gray colors. Do you pursue a language of Chinese painting in terms of oil colors and color level variation? Many artists went west to Dunhuang to discover national origins in Modern Times, such as Wu Zuoren and Dong Xiwen, and their oil paintings changed a lot as a result. After you went to Dunhuang, was there any new variation that appeared in your oil painting expression?

　　肖紅：當(dāng)時(shí)主要是被樣式打動(dòng)了。因?yàn)閷?duì)油畫(huà)材料熟悉，覺(jué)得油畫(huà)也能表現(xiàn)這種肌理或者敦煌殘破的感覺(jué)，就嘗試著這么做。

　　Xiao Hong: I was moved mostly by the style at that time. I was familiar with oil painting materials and thought that this kind of Dunhuang texture and sense of decaying could also be expressed through oil painting, so this is what I tried to do.

　　趙力：85年到89年在藝術(shù)界出現(xiàn)很多畫(huà)抽象、畫(huà)材料的實(shí)驗(yàn)藝術(shù)家，你對(duì)這個(gè)流派有什么評(píng)價(jià)，他們和你有什么關(guān)系?

　　Zhao Li: There appeared many artists who experimented with abstract paintings and materials in the art circle during 1985 to 1989; what is your comment on this school, and what is the relationship between you and them?

　　肖紅：當(dāng)時(shí)我在內(nèi)蒙上學(xué)，妥木斯先生的油畫(huà)借鑒了很多漢像磚的東西，對(duì)我們有很大啟發(fā)。去了敦煌后就邊嘗試邊畫(huà)。之前也受過(guò)八五新潮的影響，以及全國(guó)學(xué)文藝復(fù)興前期那股思潮的影響。文藝復(fù)興前期也是借鑒壁畫(huà)，我看到東方壁畫(huà)，覺(jué)得東方壁畫(huà)也很有意思。

　　Xiao Hong: I was studying at university in Inner Mongolia at that time; Mr. Tuo Musi used many pictorial stones of Han Dynasty for reference in his oil paintings, which inspired us greatly. So I began to experiment on painting after I arrived in Dunhuang. The 85’ New Wave Art Movement and countrywide trend of learning from early Renaissance both influenced me then. It was also popular to take fresco as reference in early Renaissance; and having seen Eastern frescoes, I thought they were also very interesting.

　　2.中國(guó)油畫(huà)怎么辦 What is the Future of Chinese Oil Painting

　　趙力：在“大路朝天”系列里，你借鑒了彩磚、墓室壁畫(huà)的方式，使用了一些佛像語(yǔ)言，比如佛手佛腳。我從畫(huà)面中讀到的是世俗生活和佛教符號(hào)的結(jié)合，這種現(xiàn)世生活和佛教彼岸之間的關(guān)系，你作何理解?

　　Zhao Li: In the series of “A Broad Road toward Sky”, you used encaustic bricks and murals in coffin chambers as references as well as some language in Buddhist images, such as Buddha’s hands and legs. What I read in the paintings is a combination of common life and Symbols of Buddha. So what’s your understanding of this kind of relationship between this life and that Paradise?

　　肖紅：是北方農(nóng)村生活給我的觸動(dòng)。北方農(nóng)村，尤其到了夏天，艷陽(yáng)高照、懶洋洋的，勞作也是在緩和、不緊張的節(jié)奏中進(jìn)行。我把這種狀態(tài)以及敦煌壁畫(huà)里的世俗畫(huà)面改造了一下，同時(shí)也是想畫(huà)井田的東西。

　　Xiao Hong: It was the life in the northern countryside that touched my heart. In the northern countryside, especially in summer, the sun shines high and leisurely so that even farmers work in a slow and relaxing rhythm. I reformed this state and the scenes of common life in Dunhuang fresco, and also I wanted to paint something about the well-field.

　　趙力：這樣看來(lái)，之前的結(jié)構(gòu)性考慮到了這個(gè)階段帶有了符號(hào)性的考慮，比如井田或者佛像，包括祥云的表現(xiàn)，帶有構(gòu)成性，又與現(xiàn)實(shí)穿插。從繪畫(huà)角度來(lái)說(shuō)，我覺(jué)得你是用比較單純的方式去表現(xiàn)。這段時(shí)間，也有一些藝術(shù)家開(kāi)始這么做，比如尚揚(yáng)。當(dāng)時(shí)你，包括你身邊的藝術(shù)家都在想些什么問(wèn)題?

　　Zhao Li: It helped to explain that your previous focus on structure developed into a focus on symbolic meaning in this phase, such as the well-field or Buddhist images, and the expression of lucky clouds as well; they not only showed a characteristic of constructivism but also interweaved with reality. In terms of painting, I think you used a simple expression. Some other artists also began to do so during this time, such as Shang Yang. So what were the questions you and the artists around you thought about at that time?

　　肖紅：技法上考慮更多，也走了走構(gòu)成主義，但還是在技法、風(fēng)格上考慮更多。

　　Xiao Hong: I thought more about technique and adopted constructivism, but still technique and style were more of a concern.

　　趙力：一個(gè)是技法，我覺(jué)得還有一個(gè)考慮是油畫(huà)語(yǔ)言在中國(guó)的問(wèn)題。要脫離西方，又要在現(xiàn)代范圍里考慮油畫(huà)語(yǔ)言的改造和建構(gòu)，要有中國(guó)的感覺(jué)。

　　Zhao Li: One question is about technique, and I think another question is about the language of oil painting in China; it not only needed to be separated from western influence, but also to be reformed and constructed within the scope of being contemporary, and to show a feeling of China.

　　肖紅：那段時(shí)間很看重這個(gè)，考慮中國(guó)油畫(huà)怎么辦。

　　Xiao Hong: We were really concerned about this during that time and thought about the future of Chinese oil painting.

　　趙力：從這個(gè)時(shí)間角度看，整個(gè)90年代大家都在找一個(gè)出路。找著出路以后，各走各的道路，各有各的起點(diǎn)，各有未來(lái)的目標(biāo)。所以這個(gè)階段的藝術(shù)創(chuàng)作既有共性的東西，反映中國(guó)藝術(shù)的整體面貌，又有個(gè)人的、變化性的東西。“大陸朝天”里不同透視組合在一個(gè)畫(huà)面中，有一些東西既是符號(hào)的，又是描述的，很復(fù)雜，很有意思，應(yīng)該是敦煌系列的自由發(fā)展。

　　Zhao Li: In terms of the time, all of us were searching for a way out during the entire 90s. Once finding the way, everyone kept his own direction and set his own beginning as well as future goals. So the art works in this phase not only had something in common and reflected a general characteristic of Chinese art, but also had something personal and changeful. In “A Broad Road toward Sky”, different perspectives are combined into one frame, in which there is something symbolic and narrative, very complicated, and very interesting. It can be considered as a free development of Dunhuang series.

　　3 現(xiàn)世的佛界 the Sphere of Buddha in This Life

　　趙力：在90年代你可能主要是往回看，找根源和基礎(chǔ)。到“艷陽(yáng)天”發(fā)生了很大變化，回到基本的背景和人物之間的關(guān)系，回到繪畫(huà)的基礎(chǔ)上，比如有人物、有地平線、比較現(xiàn)世化，這和前面有很大不同，從這個(gè)角度來(lái)說(shuō)，怎么會(huì)到“艷陽(yáng)天”系列?

　　Zhao Li: In the 90s, maybe you looked back for origin and base. But great changes occurred since “the Bright Sunny Sky”, in which your emphasis turned back to the basic relationship between background and characters, the basis of painting. For example there were characters and horizons, which appeared to be more secularized and greatly different from your previous works. In this sense, how did the series of “the Bright Sunny Sky” come into being?

　　肖紅：這一段比較矛盾，一是剛來(lái)北京兩年，生活比較困難，二是當(dāng)時(shí)藝術(shù)界有了變化，新出現(xiàn)的當(dāng)代藝術(shù)與我之前的繪畫(huà)思維完全不一樣，于是就在很亂的過(guò)程當(dāng)中畫(huà)了這么一批畫(huà)。

　　Xiao Hong: It was contradictory in this phase, because firstly, it was hard for me to make a living when I stayed in Beijing for only 2 years; and secondly, something changed in the art circle at the time, the new contemporary art was completely different from my previous thoughts on painting. Thus I made this series of paintings in chaos.

　　趙力：從美術(shù)史和批評(píng)的角度來(lái)看這個(gè)階段的你實(shí)際上是受到了一些影響，或者你開(kāi)始思考一些問(wèn)題，比如畫(huà)面出現(xiàn)了人物。

　　Zhao Li: In terms of art history and criticism, you received some influence in this phase actually, or you began to think about some questions, for example, characters appeared in your paintings.

　　肖紅：是兒童。

　　Xiao Hong: It is a child.

　　趙力：為什么沒(méi)有臉，沒(méi)有臉部表情的表現(xiàn)?

　　Zhao Li: But why is there no face, and no facial expression?

　　肖紅：主要是這個(gè)小孩很生動(dòng)，動(dòng)作很有意思，就把臉抹去了，當(dāng)然還是有構(gòu)成的考慮。

　　Xiao Hong: Mainly because this child is vivid and his actions are quite interesting, so I neglect his face, but of course practicing constructivism is also my concern.

　　趙力：把人物看成構(gòu)成的一部分，但已經(jīng)開(kāi)始注重人物的動(dòng)態(tài)，因而現(xiàn)實(shí)感強(qiáng)了。也出現(xiàn)了畫(huà)面背景，不過(guò)這個(gè)背景還是跟前面系列有很大關(guān)系，色調(diào)也接近。為什么要畫(huà)小孩?

　　Zhao Li: To take characters as one part of the construction, and also to begin emphasizing their movements, thus strengthening the feeling of reality. Background also appeared, but it still very much relates to your previous series, and the hues are also similar. But why did you paint Children?

　　肖紅：小孩顯得幼稚，沒(méi)有臉面，沒(méi)有表情，呆呆的，踩在一個(gè)佛陀的世界上，把他當(dāng)做一個(gè)小護(hù)法神。一些幼稚的孩子去護(hù)著佛陀的世界。

　　Xiao Hong: Children seem naïve, without face and facial expression, stamping on the sphere of Buddha; his is considered as a little dharma protector. It is some naïve children who protect the sphere of Buddha.

　　趙力：很多藝術(shù)家畫(huà)孩子是因?yàn)樗辛撕⒆?，?duì)孩子有一種關(guān)心，比如四川的一些畫(huà)家。還是說(shuō)，你只是把孩子當(dāng)作關(guān)注到的一個(gè)現(xiàn)象，當(dāng)作一種表達(dá)方式?

　　Zhao Li: For many artists, the reason to paint children is that they have children and care about children, such as some painters in Sichuan. Or do you only take children as a phenomenon you pay close attention to and a way of expression?

　　肖紅：是后者。

　　Xiao Hong: It is the latter.

　　4 流露歷史的時(shí)髦 To Show the Fashion of History Unintentionally

　　趙力：“知識(shí)青年”和之前系列的最大關(guān)系是什么?

　　Zhao Li: What is the most important relationship between the series of “Intellectual Youth” and your previous series?

　　肖紅：思想上是銜接的，只是放到新載體——時(shí)尚青年或者叫“知識(shí)青年”的臉上。當(dāng)時(shí)似乎找到了一種辦法，通過(guò)人的臉部與當(dāng)下藝術(shù)有一個(gè)更好的銜接，但最初的內(nèi)容還是佛陀，意思就是無(wú)論多么年輕的中國(guó)人都有意無(wú)意地流露出歷史的痕跡。

　　Xiao Hong: They are of the same ideology, but the latter is installed on a new medium—faces of fashionable youth or what we call “Intellectual Youth”. It seemed I found a way out at that time, that was to make a better connection between human faces and present art; but the initial content was still Buddha, meaning no matter how young they are, all Chinese people showed the trace of history unintentionally whether they realized it or not.

　　趙力：在臉上畫(huà)一些東西，美術(shù)史里叫雙重鏡像，就是在一個(gè)部分去表現(xiàn)一種關(guān)系。從這個(gè)角度說(shuō)，你在這個(gè)臉上可以畫(huà)很多別的東西，為什么要畫(huà)佛陀，要畫(huà)過(guò)去和現(xiàn)在的關(guān)系，你是不是有一種時(shí)間性的東西要表達(dá)?

　　Zhao Li: To paint something on the face is called “Double Mirror” in art history, which is to express a relationship through one part. In this sense, you can paint many other things on the face, but why do you paint Buddha and the relationship between the past and the present? Do you mean to express something about time?

　　肖紅：還是想一股腦地把這些東西全拿上來(lái)，放在一起，讓別人去想。主線有兩大塊，一個(gè)是古代的東西，一個(gè)是古代到文革。我給它的理解是不明確。對(duì)歷史，我們今天的態(tài)度也不明確，既然不明確，就把它都照搬照抄，讓觀眾去看看能想點(diǎn)什么。

　　Xiao Hong: I still want to take apart all these things thoroughly and put them together for others to think over. The main theme includes two major parts, one is things in ancient time and the other is things from ancient time to the Cultural Revolution. The interpretation I give it is “Obscure”. Now we also have an obscure attitude toward history; and since it is obscure, I only copy it for the audience to think something about it.

　　趙力：你回答(得?)很好。在整個(gè)線索里，你以前是向前找，現(xiàn)在想把兩者結(jié)合，變成關(guān)于當(dāng)下的內(nèi)容，并通過(guò)疊加的方式完成。畫(huà)面色彩也多了，出現(xiàn)了時(shí)尚的、視覺(jué)化的東西。從系列角度來(lái)說(shuō)，是為了表現(xiàn)當(dāng)下的某種狀況嗎，還是突然覺(jué)得色彩也是表達(dá)的一種方式?

　　Zhao Li: Very good answer. About the theme, you searched backward before, and now you are trying to combine the two, turning them into something about the present, and then complete it by integrating their meanings. Thus colors become more abundant with fashionable and visualized elements appearing on paintings. With regard to the series, is that for expressing some situation at present or did you just realize that color is also a way of expression?

　　肖紅：都有。但畫(huà)的時(shí)候還是比較亂，嘗試性這么做一下。表現(xiàn)上很時(shí)尚，骨子里還有文革的影子。

　　Xiao Hong: Both, but I was not clear in my own mind when painting them, so I just experimented. The expression is fashionable while retaining a shadow of the Cultural Revolution hidden inside.

　　趙力：這個(gè)系列里面的人物，早期和后面很不一樣，尤其后來(lái)好像是修版過(guò)的、概念化的，為什么和前面不一樣?

　　Zhao Li: As to the Characters in this series, the former are quite different from the latter, especially as the latter seem to be retouched and conceptualized, so why the difference from the former?

　　肖紅：這個(gè)從造型上考慮比較多。剛畫(huà)只有樣式，后來(lái)考慮還得有造型，逐漸從五官上找到固定的造型符號(hào)。有人說(shuō)怎么畫(huà)得像雕塑、像玻璃、像陶瓷，其實(shí)沒(méi)有那樣想，就是想從幾個(gè)基本美術(shù)要素出發(fā)，有樣式、有造型、有顏色。

　　Xiao Hong: I considered more carefully the latter’s form. In the beginning, I only painted patterns, but later I thought that form was also important, so I gradually found some fixed formal symbols from the five facial features. Someone said how come you painted something like sculpture, glass, and ceramics? Actually I didn’t mean that, but just wanted to begin with some basic art elements with patterns, forms and colors.

　　趙力：在后面階段你做了大量拼圖，突出了人物的臉，并改變臉的屬性，把它越來(lái)越變成一個(gè)清楚的、載體的、符號(hào)的東西。這樣是不是使得內(nèi)容變得更容易在臉上展開(kāi)，從而變成一種有機(jī)的東西?

　　Zhao Li: You made a great number of collages in your later phase, emphasized them on the characters’ faces, changed their features, and turned them into clear and symbolic carriers. By doing so, is it easier to carry out the content on faces so that it becomes something organic?

　　肖紅：是。五官簡(jiǎn)單化了之后，突出臉上這些痕跡，更加清楚。

　　Xiao Hong: Right. After the five facial features were simplified, the traces on the face stood out and became clearer.

　　5 這是一個(gè)逃不掉的問(wèn)題 This is A Question You Can Never Avoid

　　趙力：從經(jīng)歷角度來(lái)說(shuō)，你80年代在內(nèi)蒙師大學(xué)習(xí)，經(jīng)歷過(guò)85新潮，后來(lái)到北京進(jìn)修，又做獨(dú)立藝術(shù)家，發(fā)展到今天。你對(duì)當(dāng)代藝術(shù)的理解是什么，它的發(fā)展邏輯和你有怎樣的關(guān)系?

　　Zhao Li: With regard to your life experience, you studied in Inner Mongolian University in the 80s, experienced the ’85 New Wave Art Movement, went to Beijing for further education, and became a freelance artist up till today. So what’s your understanding of contemporary art, and what’s the relationship between its developing logic and you?

　　肖紅：這是一個(gè)逃不掉的問(wèn)題，藝術(shù)家都有意無(wú)意想過(guò)這個(gè)問(wèn)題，卻很難回答。

　　Xiao Hong: This is a question you can never avoid, and all artists think about it, deliberately or not, but it is difficult to answer.

　　趙力：或者說(shuō)，我們回過(guò)頭看，這么多年過(guò)去，當(dāng)代藝術(shù)解決了什么樣的問(wèn)題，沒(méi)解決什么樣的問(wèn)題?

　　Zhao Li: Or in other words, when we look back to the past, what questions has contemporary art answered and what has it not?

　　肖紅：藝術(shù)家總想對(duì)社會(huì)批判，所謂批判現(xiàn)實(shí)主義，延續(xù)這點(diǎn)走了好多年，可現(xiàn)在看也沒(méi)批判什么。面對(duì)厚重的社會(huì)，藝術(shù)家顯得特別薄弱。好多藝術(shù)家想算了吧，把自己做好也不容易了。這幾年我看到藝術(shù)有點(diǎn)轉(zhuǎn)向，批判的東西越來(lái)越少，好多藝術(shù)家也被社會(huì)融進(jìn)去了，顯得更功利。從技術(shù)角度上說(shuō)，中國(guó)當(dāng)代藝術(shù)30年間把整個(gè)西方美術(shù)史快速?gòu)?fù)習(xí)一遍，把西方當(dāng)代藝術(shù)簡(jiǎn)單、快速中國(guó)化一遍至少是一個(gè)過(guò)程，對(duì)和非，現(xiàn)在也不好判定，這是事實(shí)。到今天，我們也沒(méi)有形成一個(gè)中國(guó)式、獨(dú)立的當(dāng)代藝術(shù)。我想把西方極樂(lè)世界描繪下來(lái)，某種意義上也是對(duì)現(xiàn)實(shí)的逃脫。

　　Xiao Hong: Artists always want to criticize society, which is called critical realism. They have been keeping this tradition for many years but it seems nothing has been really criticized until now. Facing such a mighty and complicated society, artists appear to be particularly weak. Many artists hold the opinion that they should just let it go because it is already difficult to take good care of themselves. I notice that the art circle is turning its direction a little bit in recent years, less and less are criticized and many artists are assimilated into common society and appear to be more profit-oriented. With regard to techniques, Chinese artists have reviewed the whole Western art history within 30 years. To simplify and localize contemporary Western art in China is at least a process, though it is difficult to tell whether it is right or wrong, truly. We still haven’t build up an independent contemporary art of Chinese style yet. My wish to paint Western Paradise is also an escape from the reality in a sense.

　　趙力：從你的角度來(lái)說(shuō)，藝術(shù)對(duì)藝術(shù)家來(lái)說(shuō)是個(gè)人的還是社會(huì)的?如果作為個(gè)人來(lái)說(shuō)，現(xiàn)在我們都說(shuō)藝術(shù)家必須要真誠(chéng)，那真誠(chéng)是什么?什么是我要的東西，我要表現(xiàn)的東西，我想象的東西，而你想象的藝術(shù)應(yīng)該是怎么樣的?

　　Zhao Li: From your point of view, is art personal or social for artists? Personally, we all claim that artists must be honest, but what is honest? What is what I want, what I want to express, and what I imagine. And what art should be in your imagination?

　　肖紅：很多藝術(shù)家包括我們自己有時(shí)候想想自己的東西也覺(jué)得變得很無(wú)聊，是討巧討人喜歡的東西，真實(shí)的、撼動(dòng)人心的東西似乎來(lái)的不夠。藝術(shù)的終極到底是啥?都在想，但想的時(shí)間少，越來(lái)越少，這個(gè)事情我也在想，想得也不太多，最后能找著什么，我沒(méi)有找到，我看著周?chē)娜艘不緵](méi)有找到。至于成功不成功我覺(jué)得都沒(méi)有關(guān)系，最后這個(gè)成功恐怕也是個(gè)假像。

　　Xiao Hong: When many artists, including ourselves, reflect on their own works sometimes, the works also seem to be meaningless because they are just something gratifying, in a way which what’s real and shocking seem never enough. What on earth is the ultimate of art? Everybody thinks about it, but the time for thinking is so limited, even more and more limited. I am also wondering why, but haven’t thought that much. What could we finally find? I haven’t found anything yet, neither have those around me, in my opinion. As to achieving success or not, I don’t think it matters, and I am afraid that the final success is merely an illusion.

　　趙力：但成功或不成功，那是百年以后才知道。

　　Zhao Li: But to achieve success or not, we can only tell after a hundred years.

　　肖紅：對(duì)。歷史是人寫(xiě)的嘛，需要什么拿什么，這個(gè)歷史是很假的，成功也是假的。

　　Xiao Hong: Right. After all, history is written by human beings who only record whatever they need to. Thus this history is false, so is the success.

【編輯：張瑜】